Music Lesson or Drinking Beers and Telling Lies? You Decide.
on October 13th 2009 in UncategorizedHi everybody,
I’m gonna get the party started here with some really dry music theory crap that should eventually wind up in a fairly juicy place.
So this is gonna be a guitar lesson, or music lesson of some sort, and we’ll be working together on this hopefully for a long time.
In order to get up to speed on this, I have to take you all the way back to my very first musical experiences, and what those lessons should have taught me if I had only been smart enough to figure it out at the time. I’m guessing that a lot of folks probably had similar experiences, so. . . here goes nothin’…
I got my first guitar when I was 12 or thereabouts, a flat-top acoustic with a trapeze style tailpiece and floating one piece wooden bridge. It was untuned when I took it out of the box.
I had no idea how to tune it. . .
So, my first guitar playing experiences consisted of holding the thing flat down on the bed with one hand, and strumming across the slack untuned strings and pushing the bridge back and forth to change the pitch with the other hand.
Pretty much the same shit I’m into now, if you think about it.
Kinda scary.
I was eventually compelled by my patiently suffering family to at least try to learn to tune the thing.
Of course that involved putting the bridge in the right place and leaving it there, which was no fun,
but I figured it out with some help from my Dad’s science teacher friend, and commenced to begin tuning.
That took some time, Mel Bay helped, and after a while I more or less got the idea, and more or less ‘properly’ tuned the thing.
I did run into one little problem though; if I tuned the guitar so that any one chord sounded OK to me, everything else sounded like shit.
I was ill prepared for that result, disappointed etc. but my initial reaction, which I should have paid much more attention to was . . .
MY EARS DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS SYSTEM.
I soon succumbed to the peer pressure that followed from my patiently suffering friends, family and innocent bystanders to amend my position to “I can’t tune the guitar.”
The B side of which, of course was “Seek professional help.”
So, I took my guitar, and my one ‘Well Tempered’ chord that I could play, D Major, down to the local music store for a lesson.
The lesson took place in a little tiny closet with barely enough room for two chairs, two people, and two guitars.
I played my one chord for the professional guitar music instructor.
D Major. Nice.
He said “Ok, how ’bout this?”
He then turned the little D Major triangle upside down, and with triumphant satisfaction proclaimed “D7!!”
So I tried his fancy D7, and said. . .
“No, that’s not it.”
End of lesson.
What I should have learned from all that was:
1. I’m cool with just about any sound a guitar makes when the pitches can go anywhere.
2. There are compromises in the standard 12 tone tuning scheme that I can not abide.
3. That nice D Major chord in tune in with it’s overtone series worked for me, and that fancy D7, in disagreement with it’s overtone series didn’t.
Of course none of that really registered at the time, although I was feeling very strongly that in each instance my initial impressions were correct.
As a result, I shunned further instruction and just played whatever felt good, and tuned to whatever felt good.
So in my first band, we tuned the bass guitar to the kick drum and then tuned the guitars to the bass.
Sounded pretty good too.
That didn’t last long, and as I continued to progress with my playing, I was constantly bombarded with admonitions from other well meaning professional types to “LEARN THEORY”.
I resisted for years, happy in my work, but eventually caved in and started to do the music theory thing.
I wound up having one really serious problem with the information I was supposed to be learning.
Every single time I asked “Why?” about anything,
I got some bullshit along the lines of ‘because’, or ‘just because’, or ‘that’s what it says here’, or ‘that’s just the way it is’, or my favorite:
DON’T ASK WHY!!!
So, eventually I caved in to that, too.
Although it was perfectly clear to me that if the answer to the question, “What is a D Major chord?” was “D F# A”, and if the answer to the question “What is D F# A?” was “D Major”, that I hadn’t learned anything at all about that D Major triad.
I thought the ‘music theory” bit was going to explain to me why I felt the way I did when I played and listened to music,
but instead it just churned out a bunch of circular logic bullshit, perfectly protected by the really not so diabolically clever Catch 22: DON’T ASK WHY!!
Ok, great . . .
So like a complete idiot I continued to pursue this sorry excuse for a theory thing for decades, until one day I picked up my guitar and played that D Major chord, and guess what?
It was just a D Major chord again, just the sound, nothing else.
Just like the very first time I got it in tune.
I realized then that all this theory crap wasn’t about the sound or the feeling of it.
Everything I had learned about “D Major” was simply EVERYTHING THAT “D MAJOR” WAS NOT,
and when I had exhausted all the things it wasn’t, and believe me, that was a LOT of shit,
it turned back into the only thing it had ever really been in the first place:
A SOUND, A FEELING.
I should have figured that out going in from my first “music lessons”, but I guess I just didn’t have the self confidence to buck that system without checking it out first, but I have checked it out, and I had it right the first time, so that’s where we start.
It’s all about the sound, and the feeling you get from that sound, the emotion of it, the feeling states that accompany each and every resonance,
and the progression of those feeling states as the experience of music.
That’s what it’s about.
And that sound is a physical thing, a measurable quantity of vibration, and you can ask why and get an answer about that if you’re smart enough to ask the right questions.
So lesson #1 is my definition of music, the definition of music that I was looking for the ‘theory’ behind.
MUSIC IS THE FEELING YOU GET WHEN YOU LISTEN TO GOOD MUSIC.
If you have a different definition, there’s the door. . . don’t let it hit you in the ass on the way out, SEE YA!
If you’re ok with the idea that music is the way you feel when you listen to music, well then, let’s go!
OK. This first exercise is so freakin’ simple you don’t even have to be able to play at all to pull it off.
We’re looking for two things here, thing one is a quiet mind, (a very good thing to have just anyway)
and thing two is feeling the sound. Which is the whole point of the playing/listening bit.
Here’s what you want to do.
Just sit with your instrument. Don’t make a sound.
You don’t even have to be ready to make a sound, no need to put your hand on the fingerboard or the keys or whatever.
Just sit. Quiet, gutcheck.
Get empty, let go, etc.
When you feel you’ve quieted down enough that you can tell where you’re at with your feelings, and you’re ok,
Make a sound. Just one note, any note. Open string, fine. . .
When you made that sound, did something happen?
Did anything change?
Feel something?
Probably did, huh?
So that’s the first exercise, the transition from no sound to sound.
The experience of your feelings changing from one state to another in response to vibration.
And a little investigation of that knife edge, instantaneous, vanishingly brief crossing over.
That’s it. Gotta start somewhere, that’s where we start.
For you ‘music theory’ types, remember FUNCTION IS FELT.
So a quick definition that will help illuminate later discussion of the terms TONIC and TONALITY with respect to FUNCTION, here’s a definition I’m working with.
Tonality: the preservation of the psychological feeling of rest during musical performance when the tonic key center is reached.
That’s from Owen H. Jorgensen’s book, TUNING: Containing the Perfection of Eighteenth-Century Temperament, the Lost Art of Nineteenth-Century Temperment and the Science of Equal Temperment
Ok, chew on that definition and do that exercise for a week or so until I get back, and when I do, we’re gonna tackle that tonic function and make damn sure we’re feeling it.
In the meantime, here’s a very valuable link with some great info that we’re gonna need in the future, so please check it out.
Properties of the circle of 5ths
And for your dining and dancing pleasure here’s some absolutely incredible playing by Peyman Nasehpour.
You might want to twist one up before you listen to this guy, if you don’t know his music it’s shockingly good.
Peyman Nasehpour-Tonbak Solo 1
Peyman Nasehpour-Tonbak Solo 2
Peyman Nasehpour-Tonbak Solo 3
peace. SK
140 Comments
( ADD A COMMENT )That’s really good stuff.Thank you. It made me think of when I’m in a store and a baby shreiks. My emotional hit is always to come to the aide of the child. It shocks me into responce. An emotional responce.
perhaps that’s the first purpose of verbalized sound, to get us to respond with an emotional
responce??
Great stuff, Steve.
I was pleased to see your first guitar was the same kind as mine.
The other thing I shared was that initial optimism that music theory would answer the question “why?”. Like you, I was disappointed to only get answers to “what”, “how” and “when”.
However, compared with you I had several disadvantages:
I was older (though maybe not a lot less naive);
I had some prior knowledge of music (ie, of the “system”);
I had inferior ears, unable to make the kind of judgements you could about what was right and wrong. (My ears were worse than average; I can only assume yours were/are better than average.)
So I had no problem with equal temperament – even when I discovered the discrepancies with overtones.
And although I found music theory disappointing in some ways, it didn’t bother me, because ET didn’t bother me. I quite like the way it sounds. (I can just about hear differences with just intonations, but regard them as negligible.)
But – as always – I look forward to your journeys into this strange (to me) world of pure tuning.
Thanks by the way for the youtube vids – excellent (such a relief from more guitar playing, if nothing else
)
peace
Let’s talk about those ears, eh? I feel you have perfectly good ears, you hear music, it pleases you, what didn’t work, what the difference with”microtonal” listening? Don’t you feel we’ve all been codified with all these tones from birth?
and before (genetics?)
Good to see you on board old friend. You’re one of the best questioneers fer sure.
(I brought JonR and Steve together and they’ve been at it ever since, lol, and I’ve been looped ever since, guys be kind to us non mathmatical folks, is it ok to raise our hand when we don’t get it? Cause you guys can be fast)
Truly an honor to have JonR visit us here.
Heads up people, if JonR has anything to add, no matter how different it may seem from my own take on the subject, it’s safe to assume he’s correct.
You’ll either be getting a correct, useful, helpful, alternative perspective to my BS, or an actual correction. I have every confidence in Jon’s solid and straightforward approach to music in general, and we’re lucky to have him here whenever he pokes his head in the door.
So there.
In any event, JonR and I have ben around the block with a lot of this before, and the biggest diff between our respective takes on a lot of the material isn’t theoretical as much as it’s a matter of practical application.
I play and practice a lot of fretless, slide, and steel stuff, along with just tuning for fun, so I wind up drawing some different lines in my sandbox to keep track of my location harmonically.
So to whatever extent my actual playing forces me to reckon outside of 12 tone equal temperament, you’re gonna find some discrepancies in emphasis between my points and Jon’s. Again, this is not an issue of right or wrong, but a completely natural and normal consequence of the concurrent studies of 12tet and Just intonation as relates to playing guitar.
Harmonic space vs. interval space, crap like that.
You need ‘em both.
So if JonR checks in with anything specific, you can just consider him as guarding the north gate, while I’m watching to the south.
If there’s a big problem, we’ll both know, and if either of us is waving a red flag, we’ll all just run to that end of the fort and check it out.
His hearing is fine. . .
and while you guys are gaurding the gates I’ll gest help meself to a little of the pharoahs beer.
This will be good for me. Thanks Steve.
Steve I am in no way a guru or good guitarist but have been playing for while, and always loved tuning my guitar by ear, and always start tuning when I play for at least 5 to twenty minutes in the beginning, but I am never satisfied. Something, some note or string always seems out, and when I get one perfect a different one is out. And also the chords like you say trade off and on the correct resonace. I have felt like a dog chasing his tail, are you saying that there may not be a correct or even possible way to tune a guitar compeltely or is it something in our ears that is different for each person?
True, the frets are slightly out. And this will get discussed I’m sure.
Personally my faveorite way to tune is in octaves
6/5 tuned to 4/7, then 5/5 tuned to 3/7
and then I check it with the other way to play the octave 6/5 tuned to 3/2 and 5/5 tuned to 2/3
and 4/5 tuned to 1/3. That’s my best compromise
There is no way to tune a guitar so that everything is ‘in tune’. Correct.
I guess the crux of the problem is that there are two basic standards for ‘in tune’.
One standard would be that the interval that you’re tuning should be beatless, or smooth.
As if the two pitches were harmonics of the same fundamental.
That’s more or less the basis of the Just Intonation approach. Don’t bust my stones on that one yet, there’s a lot more to it than that, but we’ll get there.
The other standard currently in use is Equal temperament, or 12 equal divisions of the octave.
The basic idea there loosens up that ‘beatless requirement’ for in-tune, the goal being the greatest number of useable triads with the fewest number of pitches.
So if you try to tune your guitar so any one chord is harmonically correct, everything else just gets worse.
In reality, the guitar does a pretty good job of allowing both systems to co-exist, you can tune reasonably close to Just for some stuff, and if you’re careful with the fingerings you choose, it can sound pretty good.
Or you can tune ‘straight up’, and push and pull the strings to get closer to the ‘beatless’ standard, or a little of both approaches obviously.
I’ll talk a little more about this in the next BIG post, but it’s not the kind of thing that anybody can make sense of all at once if you’re just reading about it, it takes some time and practice to sink in.
Play, don’t worry, follow the sound etc.
The biggest lesson I’ve learned so for as regards the intonation issue is ‘Don’t get hung up about it.’
Man and nature only agree up to a point on the overtone series wrt tonal organization.
That’s always been the case, and we wouldn’t have a useable system in place today if that weren’t true.
Hey Mr. K.
I think you are doing a great service by offering the Korner. Many professional players are not humble enough for such an accurate and open forum as this.
My question pertains to the quote:
Everything I had learned about “D Major” was simply EVERYTHING THAT “D MAJOR” WAS NOT
Isn’t it pretty much common knowlege that lessons and theory instruction will not tell you how a certain combination of notes will make you feel, as it is different for each of us. The lessons and theory are to equip the player with the physical techniques to access new emotional ground, and the player can decides which combinations of notes and techniques he enjoys using.
I guess I am confused because I don’t understand what you are saying? Did you expect to go to a lesson and get an emotive description of melody? Is such a thing even possible?
Thanks
-drew
Hi Andrew.
Sorry for the confusion. The chronology of my story has the first guitar lesson years before my “theoretical confusion”.
When I went in for that lesson, I literally could not play at all in any conventional sense.
I was just upside down with the tuning issue, which was as far as I had gotten.
The root, fifth, octave, major third bit that I could tune, which I played for the guy, sounded right to me in an overtonal way in hindsight.
The 7th chord didn’t, so I bailed.
It was many years later, after enjoying just playing bass, guitar and steel without thinking about it, that I tried to put two and two together and came up with some reciprocating decimal. . .
The lessons and theory instruction bit are as you suggest, methods that allow us to find our way physically, in an outward directed way on the instrument.
That info, for the most part, shows up in the form of alphabetized lists, or alpha numeric grid coordinates to tell us where to put our fingers.
Perfect thing for that, too.
The problem with that approach after a point, is that those lists make really lousy maps.
The actual territory is inward directed mapping of resonance and emotional response.
The resonances themselves in pure form are invariant, hence worthy of study.
The reality that those invariant resonances play differently against the moving target of each individuals aesthetic and emotional centers isn’t a problem, it’s just a good reason to try to keep track of where you’re at with your own music.
So beyond the conventional theory approach, intellectual, arbitrary, and directed outward to the instrument, there is an emotional, vibrational reality, directed inward toward the musician that completes the picture in terms of communicating musically with the listener.
In any case there is “theory” that supports communication between musicians, and “theory” that supports communication between the musician and the listener, and they’re apparently two different things.
Thanks for the insightful and speedy reply Mr. K.
I fully understand that the scalebooks eventually make lousy roadmaps. I think they are a good tool to get players more interested in the craft, but ultimately a player must come forth with their own idea of a harmonic structure that is unique.
Playing around the scales is hard, and playing above them is even harder. I am a young player trying to learn all I can, and I really respect your intonation on the first two tracks of your dvd (Avalon, Bad Hair). On Avalon, you demonstrate the ability to phrase in a way that is true to the ‘lead guitar’ style without being melodically redundant or abusive. On Bad Hair, you demonstrate the ability to form your own tonal roadmap, as we are now discussing. Both are skills that I have yet to learn.
I think the perspective of the resonances themselves being worthy of individual study is wonderful.
There is also a point at which the musician can have a broader communication. Where the audience and the other members of the band share a link, a link which the musician uses to direct his energy. This approach focuses on the personal, but is physically visible.
neat. thanks man!
Wow… Steve, you’re hitting on some things that I’ve felt intuitively and wondered about for years. Heady stuff but I’ll try to keep up! Thanks for the insight.
Bruce
You know, I did exactly what you instructed. A few times now.
So far, it’s a feeling similar to waking up in the morning. Like there’s a switch thrown. And my mindset seems to alter to another state. Comfortable, but alert.
I’ll keep at it, and report back.
P.S.
Cool to see some familiar “faces” here. (Cliff, Jon).
And Andrew, your observations seem to be very perceptive and clear. It will be exciting to read your thoughts on all of this, also.
As far as Tuning the guitar, I use various methods. For me, I try to tune a “Region” of the guitar. If I think I am going to play down by the Nut, I tune with a “Cowboy Chord”. If I’m playing in the middle of the Fretboard, I try to tune that area a little more specifically. And if I’m playing more in the higher regions, I’ll try to tune that area a little more finely. All of these, with the Tonic of the Piece in mind.
Of course, I play up and down the Fretboard quite a lot. But, I try to think of a Tonic, and a Melody. This usually helps to guide my approach.
Guitar lessons always bored me to death until I met you. The teachers were always so full of themselves, showing off super fast licks, telling high fallutin’ gig stories, ego ego ego. “Play these notes in succession, play this scale, this exercise, this form, look at me, aren’t I great!” blah blah blah. Not fun. I wanted to PLAY MUSIC, not learn predigested crap that had no life blurting from the mouth of some dude barfing on himself and thinking he’s the coolest. A million years ago in another life you taught me the first real lesson, to exhaust the possibilities of not, in order to find out what it is, A SOUND! And this lesson has guided my soul on this musical journey ever since, and every time I come to you hungry for theory and practice, you turn me around and say, “Go tune your guitar to an open tuning and just play, you’ll find every thing you’re looking for. The rest is bullshit that takes you away from what is, THE SOUND. Do you like it? Well then you’re doing it right!” Thanks for being the best mentor a girl could ever want. And yes, I’M STILL PAYING ATTENTION! Always, xoxo Chrissy
good stuff! I should have done the same thing then! anything your wiiling to share is greatly appreciated.thanks for all the music and of course we can never have too much gearhead stuff.
Now that I’ve got a line with you, let me ask a question that has been on my mind for years.
Did you learn lap steel by listening to guys play pedal steel, maybe Garcia or Sless?
Were there any pedal players that really influenced your lap playing?
thanks
-drew
No, not pedal steel players specifically for the lap steel. The influences there are mostly David Lindley, Freddie Roulette, and various players from the Sacred Steel tradition and the recent Hindustani slide guitar stuff.
I think all of the music that we play is influenced by all the music we listen to, so on some level the lap steel routine for me is influenced by Bob Marley and Bill Evans too.
I’m a big fan of both pedal steel players you mentioned, but I’m not one of those guys that does a very good job emulating those pedal sounds on the lap, so as influences for my own lap steel playing those guys will both have to be content on my Bob Marley/Bill Evans list.
peace!
I recall an interview where you were asked about the connection between your music and jazz. Your response was something to the effect that your music isn’t jazz any more than it is rock n roll, but it is similar to jazz on a harmonic level.
I always wanted to ask you about this. I somehow thought that your music was similar to pop on harmonic level, but it was the phrasing that sometimes brings the jazzy feel. The way you play lead guitar reminds me much more of the way great jazz-men played their horns than it does of the way contemporary guitarists do their thing. It’s not so much the notes as the way they are played across time- the rhythm or phrasing of the lines.
Some of your tunes that resonate with me the strongest have what I consider a ‘pop harmonic structure’ such as TnG or Cole’s Law. What makes them better, in my opinion, than mainstream pop music is a higher level of musicianship, something that is commonly evidenced through the player’s phrasing.
That all sounds about right to me. Depending on the tune and the arrangement, and who I’m playing it with, any of it could be closer to folk music or pop or jazz or whatever. I’m fine with that.
My harmonic concept includes a lot of standard jazz influences, I was into that bag for awhile, not so much anymore.
The melodic phrasing bit you mention, which I was introduced to via jazz instruction, is just a good approach to melody in general.
The way I got it was “play each note at the last possible moment, and then hold it as long as you possibly can.”
That was from my friend Joe Carroll, who shuffled off this mortal coil many years ago, may he rest in peace.
Great musician. Miss him.
I still think of Joe and that advice every time I try to play a melody.
Good comments, thanks for checking in.
Goos first lesson Kimock!
I was wondering if you are saying that it is a bad thing to learn all the theory shit. I have been playing for 7 years and I have just started taking lessons to learn theory and I find them helpful but pretty dull. Maybe you could give me some insight into an approach to learn all this stuff. Should I learn scales, or something else?
Re good thing, bad thing to learn the current version of the music theory?
It really depends on the individual. Different folks just need different amounts of it to float their boat. I wouldn’t steer anybody out of it if I thought they could benefit from it, at least on a technical level, but I wouldn’t force it on anybody either.
I just don’t see it as a prerequisite for expression across the board.
There’s a whole world full of amazing music and musicians out there that has zip to do with the conventional western approach, that’s a fact.
There’s also no evidence to support the idea that thinking about anything has anything to do with the actual performance of music.
You’re just not using those parts of your brain when you play. That’s also a fact.
In my own case, the discipline involved in the study probably kept me from becoming a raging alcoholic, but on the other hand, I can’t shake the idea that my own development musically was all about the doing and paying attention to that.
Not the thinking about theory part, the actual doing.
So right now I’m saying the doing is more important than the thinking.
If you need some thinking to support the doing for you, have at it.
If not, just do it and don’t worry about it.
You’ll find the right balance as you go, and whatever that is, that’s cool.
Greetings from the High Desert of Central Oregon!
Thank you Mr. Kimock for sharing your musicality evolution and beginning this tuning conversation.
Everyone’s input so far has shed light on the matter, thank you!
Truly serendipitous timing…
Peace,
Otis
Bend, OR
I appreciate your patience.
Cool. One more and then I’ll shut up. A question about personal difference in music, really.
It could start with different personalities. For example, Rodney of SKB and John of CE have very different styles, but I really enjoy both and I’m sure you have a blast working with both of them. You can pick any two players and see how they differ melodically, rhythmically, and most importantly harmonically. Another example is you and Dave Lindley- some similar points but also some unique points.
I’m sure you’ve thought plenty about why different players have developed unique styles, but do you think some part of it could be due to the individual musician’s view of historical relevance?
It seems like some great architectural pieces can stand the test of time, just like some works of visual art and some works of theatre. I think the musician is self-conscious of this fact, and wants to play in a way that will be memorable and great. This is why players tend to favor their strengths- developing certain tricks, paces, or ways that are habitual in some sense.
Look at guys like Reed Mathis or Trey Anastasio, musicians who seem to have almost superhuman abilities. I think they push the envelope because they can, because they know it will make them great and will benefit the progress of the craft as a whole. So is the inward directed resonance thing not the ultimate goal, just a way of learning the music?
The idea that function is felt- does that lean towards the practicing or the performance?
My question, I suppose, is do you agree that musicians develop their unique styles because they favor strengths in hopes of greatness, or do you think it comes from a solely emotive place inside the musician?
Best,
-drew
You’re talking about the individual, personal expression for the need of historical relevance as a motivating force for that individual player?
I’ve never had that conversation with anybody I’ve worked with, so I’ll say, not in my experience, no.
Most of this musical life has been catch as catch can, day to day, month to month, not a whole lot of thought about the future except as a Sci-Fi theme. “I’ll be bach.” The Terminator! ‘I’ll be BACH!” there ya go!
I think in jazz at least, there’s a general notion that as improvised music goes, the music dies with the artist.
So, no more John Coltrane the artist should equal no more John Coltrane music period, but that doesn’t seem to be entirely the case.
The recordings are there, the influence stuck, the bar was set, books were written.
Jerry Garcia, same deal. No more Jer, but you got radio stations where he’s the only artist on the playlist.
I have no way to say if either of the two artists in the above examples were overly concerned with legacy as a musical motivation, I would tend to think not. In cases where there’s more obvious pop ego going on, it could be different, but who knows?
As regards ‘inward directed’, or goal orientation, or “ultimate goal’ and leaning toward practicing vs performance, in that context, I don’t think any of that is music specific in the sense that you seem to be using it.
Inward directed experience of harmony from my perspective is pretty much the same thing as admitting that after a lifetime of failing to tune to anything external, maybe it’s time to tune the guitarist instead of the guitar.
That’s neither performance/practice nor goal oriented, just a quiet wish for the experience of harmony in the moment. I don’t know what, if any, effect that experience has beyond that moment, and I don’t really care. It just seems like the right thing to do right now.
Cool!! Hope that helps.
Hey Steve,
Been curious about this for a long time. In Long Form Part 1 there are pregnant pauses where the reverb or maybe simply the echo of the room has an obviously dramatic effect. As the sound fades and then comes back it’s simple but powerful. Is there a name in music to describe that technique?
Thanks,
Bruce
Well I guess it would fall into the general category of “a break”, but after that I guess it’s an ensemble rhythmic figure, but the timing is odd, which may be part of what you’re hearing, and beyond that a lot of the effect is Rodney choking the cymbal while the rest of the band smacks the piss out of it.
So it’s not just one thing, it’s a combination of the odd figures and they expectation they set up, the contrast between letting those figures roll and then punctuating them, and the ensemble execution.
Something like that. . .
thanks. i think i am heading to your show on Nov 5 so i might ask some follow up stuff there.
keep it real
Great stuff ! I’m listening I mean relistening !
Steve,
What tunings would you suggest for my single lapsteel for:
Samba
Forever Is Nowhere
TNG
Thanks,
Samba. A C# E A C# E low to high
Forever is Now Here. F# C# F# A# C# F#
TNG. F C F A C F
Too Cool!
Thanks Man!
Bruce
Thanks Steve!! I love your angle on music!
Awesome.
Thanks!! I love your “angle” on music!
hey
Concerning tuning
At some point tuning stops cause playing begins.
The 6/5 tuned to 5/0 sucks. I prefer the harm at 12 tuned to 5/7. And then I always get my octaves in tune as beatless as possible.
And of course I bend the neck on single tones or push flat on the wrapped strings. With a delay on
the bending gets the chorus ala Friz. Sounds nice with chords. The cello vibrato is not so natural but I understand the idea of creating a off fret pitch and using the cello vibrato centers that pitch
Hard technique.
And feeling, we are all full of feeling, and you are no different, but you are, “developed” in the feeling dept. This aspect of your playing can’t be put into words, you hear it, register it as “feeling”, it goes further, “it’s Kimock Feeling the muse”. You connect your instrument to your voice and so you have a voice. Has nothing to do with technique or formula.
Can you talk about that mind/instrument/oneness
what it’s like to get to play with Kimocks machine as you have this possesion of knowledge at your whim with your emo side.
I’ll sit down now.
Ha! Spend half your life tuning and the other half playing out of tune!
Gotta love that. . .
I don’t get your fraction thing there Cliff, could you give that to me another way? Just curious, I wasn’t connecting those dots . . . . .
The lengthwise “cello’ vibrato will be the subject of a technique demo at some point, and I can promise you it will be very boring.
Just for the record, the “cello vibrato” tag is yet another misnomer.
The fretted vibrato pitch variation is opposite in direction to the fretless, don’t want to piss off any cellists. Cool axe.
I really don’t know how to respond in a meaningful way to the “feeling” issue. It seems obvious that there is some X-factor in the sound that goes along with the experience of being present at a passionate performance of any music on any instrument, but how much of it is in the performer, and how much in the listener, and how much of it sticks to tape, and how much of it is some other energy are all open questions. I’m not sure we’re gonna get a handle on that any time soon.
Maybe never.
But yeah, the ‘self shining through the note’ or whatever it is, that’s what you want to see, and that’s what you want to be.
Derek Trucks has that going on for sure.
It’s a rare quality.
The rest of us just gotta be content with doing the work, and be happy in our work.
Be happy!
I am happy with my work and sounding like me.
I enjoy being a low density player by choice.
That means I have to put more into less, feeling
Sorry about the 6/5 confusion
6/5 = 6th string 5th fret, string first then fret
So when I said 6/5 tuned to 5/0 means that standard tuning method.
Oh, duh! On the 6/5 routine, and I’m right there with you on the rest.
Anyhow, I got to bail for a bit, gigs etc. I’ll try to check in along the way, but I won’t be traveling with a computer, so if I do show up it’ll be a piece of luck involving Holiday Inn Business center or something equally horrid.
Love to all!
Hey SK. Hope things are going well. I’m stoked for “The Korner” I’ll be here frequently. See ya in CT soon.
This is gonna be cool!!!!
Thanks for opening up to all of us about this really very personal thing of how it is that music touches us in a very real honest emotive manner. You were really brave to stick it out when the professionals were not really telling you why, when you asked. That same question lead me toward smaller and smaller relationships of matter and energy. I see everything as relationships of matter and energy defined through chemistry. Yet the science fails to define the emotion part of the music/human relationship. Therein lies the magic!
Hello All,
I tried the exercise described in this first lesson… actually, I tried it twice. For me the sitting is the hardest part… the clearing… the NOT letting my fingers run the show. I was finally able to get “comfortable” with that silence and when I hit that note I felt it… in my face. There was this gentle tug on both sides of my mouth and along my cheeks as if a smile was being pulled out of me by the note. I thought “Well that’s too… that’s too much,” so I tried it again. Sitting… breathing… nothing… Note… again the tugging…
I think that I learned that the note makes me happy in a physical way… my body is physically lifted…
Thanks. I think I’ll try this again.
Peace-
Ben
Yeah Ben! Love what you said, simple and beautiful. I felt bottom E radiating from my chest, arms and mid body, and into the chair I was sitting in. Still, I was over analyzing at the same time, I didn’t quite have the quiet mind part. Going to approach this exercise with less mind, more awareness of feeling, thanks for sharing your experience.
Chrissy
Hello Chrissy and others,
Thank you for sharing. I had a tough time with the “quiet” part, too… my mind kept asking “Is it time yet?” and then my mind would reply, “Obviously not(!) if you’re still asking questions…”
Does anyone else have a report about their quiet/note toggle point?
Peace-Ben
Yo Steve,
Man this is really exciting! I’ve been reading your in depth posts at TGP for some time now and just scratching my head. I’m so glad you’re going to start at square 1 for us!!! You are definitely a seriously In Tune dude and I appreciate this more than I can even say. I hope you get out to the NW again soon, that Portland Alladin Crazy Engine show really cleared my pipes. What a band. Thanks again, looking forward to the next chapter. I’m gettin’ down with my circle of 5ths now.
Still working, here.
I guess the alertness Iwas speaking of is kind of like when you take a ddep breath before jumping into the water. Once you’ve been swimming for a long time, you don’t really think about it. You just do it.
But, it’s more than holding your breath. It’s also having your mind switch into a different state. A flood of emotions, sensations and expectations of such.
Yet, there I sit. Going beyond the automatic. Sitting on the edge of the bluff, and contemplating all those emotions and sensations. Feeling the sun warming me, the air blowing around me and the coming rush………….
When I think about quieting the mind, I don’t think of some hippie sensation. It’s honestly more about lifestyle choices: avoiding frustrating experiences and focusing on more things that make you comfortable with the current situation.
Yes Andrew! This is the true practice, and the hardest to master, but worthy of great effort. Truly Life is Art. Thanks for that.
About my experience the exercise, as I said I felt it in my body. Then the second time, my hearing expanded, I heard the 5 harmonic with the bottom E. Than I wanted to compare it with how I responded to high E which I felt in the area around my head. I discovered I could hear the 5 and the octave 1 harmonic better with high E and then got sucked in to listening for the harmonic series, seeing which ones I could actually hear, I didn’t get the 3 or 7, yet.
I have tried this with Om-ing (as in singing Om repeatedly) and I discovered that depending on the length of my breath and shape of my mouth and lips, and feeling how it vibrated my skull, I could really hear the harmonic series sounding in my head. I sat for quite awhile trying to create and hear the whole series. Now that’s a fun meditation, my mind get’s completely absorbed in the creation and listening of the one note. I suggest giving it a try, even if you don’t think you’re a singer. The longer the out breath, the more of the series you can hear. I imagined that maybe that’s why the monks and swami’s do it, I felt I had accidentally discovered “The Secret of Om”. Maybe that’s what Steve is giving us here!
So, that’s where I wind up, sucked into the harmonic series, engrossed in listening.
The difficult part, is trying to stay put, and holding back from wanting to go anywhere, ie, playing a scale or a melody. The hardest part for me is not wanting more.
Thanks guys, and thank you Steve, awesome Korner you’ve made for us to share! Much Love and More Music!
Interesting you say that, because the hardest part for me is often wanting more. I am sometimes too satisfied with the naked harmonic structure and need to push myself to add more tones.
Hi Steve, Johnny & Trevor, thank you for the song
greetings from the North Sea
Rudy the Roadie
For some reason, perhaps it was the way I was raised, I have always thought there to be a right way of doing everything. Certain methods can be thrown out, while others prove correct. So while Kimock can appear more on the counter-culture, jammy self-taught side of things, I think the part of his approach that resonates strongest with me is just being in the moment while working.
I think that is the most important part of any music theory, or any music lesson or training.
If you are someone who plays music every day with passion, and if you have the ability to get into the studio or on stage and be completely “in the zone”, not thinking about anything else, then you are a good musician in my opinion. Almost more professional, in a certain sense of the word, than someone who has more formal training but is not in the same zen-state.
my two cents,
drew
I think the perception of any apparent “counter-culture/loose/jammy/self-taught” qualities to SK’s approach disappear as soon as you talk to him for a few minutes. We all have this tendency to associate “formal learning” with certain outcomes — most often, seemingly, the wear-it-on-yer-sleeve technical displays of someone like Coltrane or Al DiMeola.
But there are all sorts of dimensions to musicality. Some of which are less obvious.
Hi Andrew, re: “Right way to do things/throw some stuff out”, that’s pretty much my current approach in a nutshell.
I don’t know that there’s a “right way” to do anything musically, but there are things that are provable or testable enough that you can say that they are true.
The physical vibration aspect of sound is measurable, so there should be some basic musical relationships that are provably ‘true’ insofar as music IS sound.
If those things agree with your own sensibilities, you can keep ‘em.
If they offend you, discard them, or save ‘em for later.
In other words, somewhere between the physical reality of it and your own personal preference is “the right way”.
At this point for me, those two polarities, the physical reality and the emotional response or preference are the measure for the usefulness of any concept.
If it agrees with the overtone series and I dig it, fine, it’s in.
So far at least I can’t find anything that I dig that doesn’t conform to the overtone series in some basic way with the possible exception of octave equivalence, which is too bad because that’s huge, but I still for some reason like the sound of sharp octaves. I hate that.
Who knows? Not me!!
What do you think about the idea that some people were born to be musicians and others simply weren’t?
I wanted to be a professional guitar player so badly. I practiced and practiced and practiced and it just never came to me. It always seemed so hard and the only thing I could do well was regurgitating songs from memory. I could never just ‘play’. I say this as I am very good at a lot of things and those things come so naturally. But as far as the guitar, I have resorted to just listen to those who were meant to play it. Am I just lazy?
Hey Steve, thanks for the info about your ebow this summer in portland, maine.
I just wanted to ask your advice on getting to the point where a young guitar player (18) can get paid to play, like maybe a nice starting point. Maine probably isn’t the best place to live music wise lol.
I’m also very psyched you have started this section, because there is a lot I’d love to learn, and who better to teach. Anyway, I look forward to hearing more from you, keep it up!
And also, when your playing, it could be anything, how often are you changing keys and scales, I’ve heard Garcia use to do it on songs like Eyes of the World. Like you might be thinking, okay, I have to switch to E Phrygian over this E min chord, then switch back to G mix for example.
Yeah, I agree. I think Kimock is part of the underdog scene because he doesn’t conform to any one style. But I agree that he has that true level of musical depth.
And about the idea that some people are born to play music….
I think that might be the case. I mean there is some type of broad, general human aptitude that allows some people to function as smooth, effective parts of society. And some of that aptitude translates into effective specific skill, such as building boats or playing notes, but a lot of the individual skill comes from that person’s unique style.
Some folks have a personality that makes them great players, and other folks have a personality that makes them great members of the audience. One is not more important than the other. They both take dedication.
later,
drew
This Korner is awesome, I love hearing what you all have to say.
I like what you wrote Drew about the zone. For me, it was either go out and play or go crazy thinking about it. There is no doubt it came naturally, and I had the gift of being willing to listen to people who were better than me, so I learned a lot. I think that trait got me farther than any natural ability I had.
Once I asked Kimock why he played music. His answer was simple, “Because I can”. I mulled on that one for years!
To Zack:
I asked that same question to Paige McConnell of Phish at the beginning of my career and he told me “Just play, play with anybody, play with everybody, just play, the rest will happen on it’s own.” I could play 2 songs, so I went to the local open mic. Every door opened from there, eventually leading me to playing onstage with Kimock. Maybe there’s a blues jam or open mic in your town you can hit up regularly, you’ll meet all the locals that way. It starts when you begin, work with what you got. Don’t forget, Phish started in Vermont, and Kimock started in Bethlehem, PA! When it’s time for you to leave home, you will.
I think maybe Kimock stays “underground” so he can do it his way and not compromise his integrity. He told me “It’s not about making it, it’s about making it last.” I believe that.
Rock on dudes, Sister Soul
good stuff Sister
thanks for sharing some of your experiences & knowledge
This is like disneyworld to me
thanks Steve.
Thanks Steve!!
What is the correct title of the song Smells like Girl Driums? Is it Girl, Girls, Girl’s, or Girls’? And why was such a nice composition pretty much dropped from your repertoire (once resurected in 06) compared to other pieces from that early Zero period that became Kimock mainstays? It seems to have a lot of open space for extended expression.
And in a larger sense, how come certain songs make appearances regularly in the rotation, and some don’t. Why/how do you have/develop favorites? Thanks!
i’ve been musicaly brainwashed by the dead and your even more so “pshycadelic jazz” as i like to call it,for 25 years. love listening to your musical insights. takin it all in steve. let the lessons begin!
Thanks Cliff, that’s real nice of you. What can I say, I learned from the best! LOVE YOU STEVE!! xo Sister (ps: Can’t wait for the next lesson!)
Hey man, sorry I didn’t make it to the ‘cuse show, but I have been busy working on my own music and such. But I got my ticket for the Sullivan Hall show… I know how special it’s going to be. It’s funny that it will be the Phish afterparty and all, but I think a lot of heads are just going down for your show. Pretty big compliment right there.
OK, later.
Steve,
Thank you for your hospitality at Eugene and thank you for a wonderful show. I really like the stripped down feel and sound of the current lineup. I hope you are enjoying the Ozark. It sounded great to me. Thanks for playing it that night. I’m glad it’s back in your hands. Just don’t let anybody see the back of it. Thanks again and I look forward to the next run through Oregon.
Do any others here ever visit the Forum?
http://www.online-discussion.com/SteveKimock/index.php?sid=c3d71e7403a5d8c67cfd3f997bc8feb7
There’s some good info over there!
Glad that Jeff mentioned the gear/technical discussion page (http://www.online-discussion.com/SteveKimock/). Coincidentally, Steve and I are brainstorming on a way to integrate the Korner with that page. What we will likely do in the near future is some sort of mirroring of each site on the other.
We think each of the places is different enough in focus and scope that they will complement each other well–for one thing, the Korner here is a bit more focused while the gear/technique page allows for more in-depth treatment.
If any of you have suggestions for how this might best be done, we’d be very glad to hear them.
Have you considered using WordPress for this blog? WordPress has a multitude of Plugins that would help you achieve the ‘mirroring’ function that you are looking for. Additional Plugins would cross post New Threads from this site to Steve’s Facebook, Myspace and/or Twitter feeds. Most of the WordPress stuff is free to boot. I use it for my site to blast job openings across all the mentioned sites just by updating my website. With it’s SEO tools I jumped to the top of Google rankings within 2 weeks. It’s pretty slick.
In fact, this entire site is done on WordPress…Also, if you sign up for RSS on home page it will give you options for Kimocks Korner and you will receive feed.
I thought I noticed one URL extention that had wordpress in it. Here is what I found for WordPress to share content on multiple domains.
http://www.acosmin.com/same-wordpress-content-on-multiple-domains-using-domain-mirror/
Not sure if that is exactly what you are looking for though. I have a WP guru at my fingertips and am in the process of developing another WP site for my step-son and his music. You should meet the kid one day.
I also use a Facebook and Twitter plugin to blast my posts to those sites. It posts a link and drives traffic to my main site. And it tricks Google into thinking I am real important.
So, do any others here visit the Forum?
I visit the forums now and then. A great place for Musicians to discuss their craft. Not being one myself, I get lost very easily and the A.D.D. kicks in and I go ride my bike and listen to Eudemonic.
Well, more here should check it out!
Steve, that was an excellent story about trying to understand that magical feeling. It had to be in a cookbook and justifiable. What a struggle! The music that you play impacts my spirit. I walk away feeling better within myself and in awe of how a human being can channel art. It’s work, play, and prayer all in one.
Am I imagining things or was there a second page here at one time?
Is there pages??
Just found this…looks very nice. Some of this reminds me of Kenny Werner or Zen Guitar.
Be back when I catch up.
Thanks for this…